Episode 5: From Smartsheet Expert to Self-Employed Success: Darren Mullen's Journey

Season #1 April 03, 2025

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Thriving Through podcast, host A.J. Riedel interviews Darren Mullen, the "Smartsheet Guru."

Darren shares his journey from technical user to successful self-employed consultant, revealing strategies for building a sustainable consulting practice with multiple revenue streams.

Key Topics Discussed

- Darren's Path to Self-Employment: How creating Smartsheet tutorial videos on YouTube attracted his first clients

- Defining Client Problems: Solving complex Smartsheet implementations that clients lack the time or expertise to handle

- Multiple Revenue Streams: Transitioning from hourly consulting to training programs and partnership commissions

- Client Challenges: Why raising rates actually attracts better clients

- Marketing Strategies: Building an email list through valuable free content and nurturing leads consistently

- Time Management: Balancing client work (50-60%), marketing (30%), and administration (10%)

- Business Evolution: Plans to move more into teaching, coaching, and potentially managing other consultants

- Growth Challenges: Learning to delegate while maintaining quality standards

Notable Quotes

- "When you price yourself too low, you attract the wrong kind of clients... once I did start raising my rates... I just started attracting that higher tier client that's a lot easier to work with."

- "It's hard to grow your business when you're trying to do everything."

- "Don't assume that everyone else knows what they're doing because most people don't."

- "Build your audience... and be consistent with it. You have to have consistency and stamina to really stick with it for it to pay off."

Resources Mentioned

- Smartsheet Guru Elite program

- Smartsheet add-ons - smartsheetguru.com/tips

Connect with Darren Mullen

- Website: smartsheetguru.com

- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt9c8dNsuHwfs53UBVhCsAQ

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-mullen-smartsheet-guru/ -

Freebie: Smartsheet tips: smartsheetguru.com/tips

About the Host A.J. Riedel hosts the Thriving Through podcast, focusing exclusively on helping self-employed consultants build successful practices. Available on all major podcast platforms.

Subscribe to Thriving Through

Episode Transcript

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AJ Riedel: What was your path to becoming a self-employed consultant?

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Darren Mullen: I was looking for a way to get out on my own

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Darren Mullen: after the the company I was working for

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Darren Mullen: underwent a lot of changes you know, I didn't agree with during Covid and after Covid

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Darren Mullen: and so I had been a heavy technical user of smartsheet.

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Darren Mullen: So I started making some tutorial videos for Youtube showcase, my knowledge.

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Darren Mullen: And then, within a few months of doing this, I got my 1st client

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Darren Mullen: who had reached out to me, based on one of my videos, and so that

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Darren Mullen: gonna confirm for me there's demand for this type of services.

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Darren Mullen: I also saw a demand for these services on freelancer platforms like upwork and fiber.

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Darren Mullen: So then I ended up creating my Llc. To operate under.

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Darren Mullen: and then started finding additional clients through these platforms.

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Darren Mullen: And then I started to accumulate an audience on Youtube and Linkedin

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Darren Mullen: and ultimately the the goal of creating those audiences was to use that to build up my email list, too.

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AJ Riedel: Okay. So the going back.

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Darren Mullen: You.

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AJ Riedel: Did a couple tutorials to kind of get started? What gave you the idea that there might be a problem with the people needed to to be solved with smartsheet.

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Darren Mullen: Cause. I had those same problems when I 1st started and was learning.

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Darren Mullen: And and I came across Youtube videos, too, you know, in that.

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Darren Mullen: So it gave me the idea. Well.

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Darren Mullen: I can make my own videos and see what happens.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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AJ Riedel: So

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AJ Riedel: it wasn't a formal. I'm gonna sit down and do a business plan and get an Llc. Started right from the get go. It was really more exploratory.

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Darren Mullen: Exactly exactly

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Darren Mullen: I wasn't. I wasn't sure if I was gonna go out on my own at that time.

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Darren Mullen: So. But I thought that starting a Youtube channel and and putting out my knowledge would be helpful, regardless of what I did.

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Darren Mullen: And then, once that brought in some business. Then

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Darren Mullen: I knew that this I can make this work.

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Darren Mullen: or I thought I could make it work. I didn't know, but I thought I could.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, you had some indications that you would be able to make it work.

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Darren Mullen: Yup, definitely.

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AJ Riedel: Were there any defining moments that made you go out on your own.

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Darren Mullen: M.

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Darren Mullen: I think just knowing that

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Darren Mullen: I wasn't gonna be happy any longer, being an employee at really, probably any company.

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Darren Mullen: I started making my mind up that I wanted to go out on my own.

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Darren Mullen: So I think I think that was really the the moment, and

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Darren Mullen: know, knowing that people had done that

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Darren Mullen: and then and then, seeing other other companies in this space that were out there, it let me know that it's doable.

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AJ Riedel: Okay?

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AJ Riedel: So you you cut you did some informal market research.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: In a way.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, you said when you did those 1st tutorials that

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AJ Riedel: they were to educate people on the problems that you had when you 1st started using smart sheet.

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AJ Riedel: Now that you know you're deeper into being a consultant.

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AJ Riedel: how would you define the problems that you're looking to solve for your clients?

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Darren Mullen: And yes, a lot of them have complex problems in smartsheet

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Darren Mullen: that they don't have the knowledge to solve or the time to learn how to solve it.

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Darren Mullen: You know, a lot of companies have smart sheet.

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Darren Mullen: and you know, smart sheets core.

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Darren Mullen: I guess feature is really project management.

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Darren Mullen: But

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Darren Mullen: you can do a lot more with it. And so if a company has project managers on staff, they can. They can use the software in that way.

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Darren Mullen: but when they want to but do something more advanced.

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Darren Mullen: Build out some sort of data tracker that has external collaborators and then

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Darren Mullen: have it integrate with another outside system

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Darren Mullen: a lot of times they may not have that skill set on staff.

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Darren Mullen: So that's that's the problem is more of these complex

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Darren Mullen: problems that they don't have time to figure out on their own or or staff on hand to do that.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, and they are very likely to look outside rather than hiring new staff.

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Darren Mullen: Correct.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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Darren Mullen: Because it may not be a full time.

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Darren Mullen: They may not need someone full time to do that right.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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Darren Mullen: So having that flexibility to be able to hire or contract that work out

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Darren Mullen: is good for them, because it's it's less of a commitment

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Darren Mullen: and and it's nice from a a freelancer's perspective. Because and you have many different bosses.

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Darren Mullen: in a sense. But you're not an employee. So the dynamics a lot different.

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Darren Mullen: You you show up to work, and and that's what you're expected to do. You don't need to get involved with any of the

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Darren Mullen: internal company politics, or anything else.

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Darren Mullen: And and it's it's more secure in a sense that

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Darren Mullen: you know, if if you have one client that drops off. Well, you still have others.

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Darren Mullen: So since I started freelancing, you know, I've never had a month where my income was. 0

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Darren Mullen: had months where it's been low, especially, you know, starting out with a lot of ups and downs.

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Darren Mullen: It's a little more, little more consistent now.

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Darren Mullen: but that's that's what I find.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, okay, your projects are mostly implementation. At this point.

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Darren Mullen: Implementation and support, too. So we have a lot of longer term clients that will implement a solution for and then maintain and support it long. Term.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, okay?

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AJ Riedel: And when, when we talked earlier, you talked about

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AJ Riedel: that, you are looking to go

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AJ Riedel: a little bit beyond just the developing the solutions

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AJ Riedel: into. Tell us a little more about that.

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Darren Mullen: Where you're thinking of going.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, I want to move more into teaching

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Darren Mullen: users smart sheet users how to how to use the platform.

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Darren Mullen: And, in fact, that's I've started doing that some.

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Darren Mullen: I've started this program I call the Smartsheet Guru Elite.

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Darren Mullen: and where where you can join and we have group sessions throughout the month.

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Darren Mullen: And there's a place where you can ask me questions directly online.

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Darren Mullen: And and I have, you know, some members have some paying members now. So that's

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Darren Mullen: it's a good start and also promote

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Darren Mullen: some smart sheet. Add-ons. There are

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Darren Mullen: other companies that have developed add-ons extensions for smartsheet, and I promote those on a commission basis.

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Darren Mullen: And and that's very helpful to remove me from reliance on traditional.

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Darren Mullen: you know, hour by hour, type, consulting work.

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AJ Riedel: Right?

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AJ Riedel: Yeah, I like that. You have that. That's a mistake. I see a lot of self employed consultants make is relying on a single revenue stream, and it looks, and it looks like you are already, even in the early stages of your business, or looking to diversify

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AJ Riedel: into multiple revenue streams.

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Darren Mullen: Yup, Yup, I, yeah. Once I started reaching out to other companies

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Darren Mullen: and asking for partnerships and seeing if they they have partnership opportunities that really open the opportunities.

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Darren Mullen: And now I've been yeah. I've been reselling some of these now for

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Darren Mullen: going on a couple of years now.

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Darren Mullen: and that's nice, because these are annual subscriptions that you know year over year, as long as they

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Darren Mullen: maintain the being a customer. Then that's that's additional revenue for me.

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AJ Riedel: Nice.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: I'm going to switch gears and talk about the challenges that you faced.

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AJ Riedel: Tell us a story or 2 about the biggest challenges you've faced building your practice, and how you've overcome them.

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Darren Mullen: Think taken on so some of the challenges were, you know, when you're 1st starting out?

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Darren Mullen: You think you have to

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Darren Mullen: price yourself lower, or you don't. You don't have the confidence to, you know, price yourself.

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Darren Mullen: how some of the bigger companies are.

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Darren Mullen: And what that does is when you price yourself too low, you

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Darren Mullen: you attract the wrong kind of clients.

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Darren Mullen: And they they they expect a lot

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Darren Mullen: but they don't really have a budget, or don't wanna

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Darren Mullen: you know, pay you very well.

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Darren Mullen: So I had. I had some of those situations where you know, just clients that

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Darren Mullen: that were very, you know, very demanding, and I really didn't

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Darren Mullen: communicate very well, and part of that was was me learning, too, and how to communicate with clients, and and how to set boundaries with those clients.

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Darren Mullen: So that that was a that was a big challenge.

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Darren Mullen: And I guess, as far as you know how to overcome that

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Darren Mullen: is, I. You have to experiment some

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Darren Mullen: and you have to build up some confidence and and learn to say, Nope.

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Darren Mullen: learn that it that it's okay to not take on every job or opportunity that comes your way.

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Darren Mullen: And then once I did start in.

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Darren Mullen: you know, raising my rates and and coming more to

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Darren Mullen: what? What? Some more of the skilled freelancers were in the marketplace

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Darren Mullen: start attracting that higher tier client.

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Darren Mullen: It's a lot easier to work with, and

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Darren Mullen: was was more than willing to

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Darren Mullen: to pay a higher price for a good valuable service.

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AJ Riedel: I've heard that from other consultants, and it seems almost counterintuitive that when they are charging lower rates

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AJ Riedel: because they're afraid

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AJ Riedel: that you know, maybe they're not experienced enough. For whatever reason they don't feel like they can charge a higher rate. They attract a more difficult client.

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Darren Mullen: Yep. Yep.

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AJ Riedel: And when you charge premium rates you attract premium clients.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: Who are easier to work with, probably have more experience working with consultants and recognize the are the relationship.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah. Yeah. And and you asked for a story. I just one came to mind

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Darren Mullen: had a company that reached out to me.

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Darren Mullen: And you know I'm pulling my rate everything. And then it it took them

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Darren Mullen: you know, a month or 2 to really get back to me, and then they sent over a contract. They signed it.

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Darren Mullen: and then it was I. I thought they just weren't gonna move forward at all, you know.

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Darren Mullen: Then a couple of months pass by and they reach. Okay, we're ready to start. And

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Darren Mullen: and it was just.

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Darren Mullen: you know, it was kind of a Hassle. And and they're they're they weren't very clear on their communications. And as an example, they they asked for you know my banking details so they could pay me electronically. But then I sent my 1st invoice, and I never showed up. And then

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Darren Mullen: I kept contacting them and said, Oh, we mailed the check. Okay? Well, you didn't tell me you're gonna mail a check? Then I I had to go to the You know the Off post office to go get it out of the po box and

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Darren Mullen: and there there was just a lot of that right going on. And

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Darren Mullen: Eventually I I did I? I just said, like, I'm raising my rates and and and they said, No, and I was happy about that.

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Darren Mullen: You know.

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Darren Mullen: So so yeah, that that's a story. But.

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AJ Riedel: So, having gone through that experience, if you had another client that was like that one.

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AJ Riedel: what? How would you handle it now?

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Darren Mullen: But I'd probably consider just when when they did come back to me is say, like, I'm just, you know, not not available to work with you anymore. So

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Darren Mullen: because.

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Darren Mullen: you know, if if a company comes to your client comes to you and and says, You know, we want to work with you, and we wanna

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Darren Mullen: start soon, and then then they blow you off like that. Well, they're they're not gonna

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Darren Mullen: likely not gonna respect you. As a as a consultant

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Darren Mullen: especially given this this situation, I mean, there wasn't any any real reason.

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Darren Mullen: you know, for them not to

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Darren Mullen: to to go on this this big effort and and push a contract through, and then not not execute it.

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Darren Mullen: But that's probably how I would handle it, and then, you know, I may. I may consider

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Darren Mullen: referring them out to a larger firm that that has more experience with dealing with that type of client.

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Darren Mullen: So I do that, too, when

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Darren Mullen: now that I have a gut feeling now for.

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Darren Mullen: or who the clients are I want to work with and don't want to work with.

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Darren Mullen: You know, being a being a smaller company with, with mostly just me doing all the work.

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Darren Mullen: You know I don't. I don't have someone on staff to be that that middle manager

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Darren Mullen: between the client and and me.

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Darren Mullen: Whereas, you know, a larger company will will have that, and and has more experience dealing with those situations.

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AJ Riedel: But you're in the position where

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AJ Riedel: you can be choosy. Correct about about who you take.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: Okay. And speaking of wearing all the hats.

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AJ Riedel: A consultant typically has sort of 3 buckets of what? Where they need to spend their time. Obviously, client work. That's the thing that pays the bills. But then lead generation, client acquisition, sales, marketing. And then there's the you're running a business. You're the CEO of a business. So there's the business aspect of it. How do you?

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AJ Riedel: What percent of time would you say you spend in each of those 3 buckets.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, it varies from day to day, but overall. Probably, you know, client work, maybe be

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Darren Mullen: 50 to 60% of my time.

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Darren Mullen: And I I've been doing more marketing now lately. Because I do have these other offerings to promote

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Darren Mullen: so you know, I might be spending 30% of my time on that.

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Darren Mullen: and then maybe 10% time on more administrative type tasks.

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AJ Riedel: Okay? And let's talk about the marketing.

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AJ Riedel: So you spend about 30% of your time on it on average. What kind of marketing do you do.

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Darren Mullen: Youtube videos, of course. Still do that.

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Darren Mullen: Linkedin outreach and then email marketing through my list.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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Darren Mullen: Those are my 3 main channels.

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AJ Riedel: Okay? And the, how do you build your email list?

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Darren Mullen: I offer a tips document for smartsheet users

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Darren Mullen: and it's very easy. I just tell them. Go sign [email protected] slash tips.

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Darren Mullen: and they get their document, which is a very, very simple document, because you want people to actually read it and use it

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Darren Mullen: like. I don't give away like my ebooks. So I have some smart sheet books I've written and published.

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Darren Mullen: The second one is in paperback, too, but you know, I could very easily give those away. But the problem is, most people don't read Free yearbooks. So if you give away something like a checklist or tips document.

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Darren Mullen: they're much more likely to actually look at it and get value out of it.

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Darren Mullen: which then, you know, raises your status in their mind because you've provided something valuable to them.

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AJ Riedel: And in exchange they've given you your their email address.

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Darren Mullen: Correct.

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AJ Riedel: How do you nurture your email list.

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Darren Mullen: I send more more tips generally notify them. When I

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Darren Mullen: I publish videos, I I tell different stories. I try to keep it. Try to keep it interesting.

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Darren Mullen: You know. I'll tell personal stories and then tie it in to something.

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Darren Mullen: Say to do with smartsheet.

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Darren Mullen: So some kind of in infotainment.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, how often do you email them?

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Darren Mullen: But I've been doing once a week

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Darren Mullen: is what I like to do.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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Darren Mullen: You know, in in business to business.

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Darren Mullen: I I don't know if doing every day is is the best or not.

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Darren Mullen: You know a lot of lot of email marketers will say, you know, email every day.

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Darren Mullen: But I find that that's a little hard for me to do, just

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Darren Mullen: especially with a more technical complex

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Darren Mullen: list. It's I'd I'd have to spend a lot of time writing content.

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Darren Mullen: So I I tend to the email. I try to email once a week. So sometimes twice, if I have something really exciting going on or something I really want to promote

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Darren Mullen: but keeping that keeping your or I guess remaining present in people's inboxes is really important.

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Darren Mullen: So even if I don't have a a great smart sheet tutorial to put out at the time. I still like to send something just to kind of say Hi, to, everyone may list

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Darren Mullen: because I I've had the experiences where

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Darren Mullen: I'll email about one particular topic.

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Darren Mullen: And then someone responds back to it, saying, Oh, I'm I'm glad you emailed me because I've been meaning to contact you about something else that I offer.

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Darren Mullen: So it's really about being present in people's email boxes. So that way, when when you do have something promoting some. They're used to seeing you in there.

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AJ Riedel: Okay and do is, do you feel like your email marketing? It works in terms of generating leads and clients.

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Darren Mullen: It does, it does.

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Darren Mullen: It could be a longer game. It can take some time.

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Darren Mullen: But when you have these faithful subscribers on your list.

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Darren Mullen: Eventually they do reach out, and they've already made their mind up that they want to work with you.

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Darren Mullen: That's the great thing about it.

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AJ Riedel: Sounds good.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, same same with the same with the books.

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Darren Mullen: I'm working with a client right now that

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Darren Mullen: had read my book, and you know she had made her mind up that I wanna work with this guy so.

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AJ Riedel: He wrote the book on the topic. He's the best guy to about to hire.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, would you?

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Darren Mullen: I think I think that's something you recommend is really positioning yourself as an expert. And

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Darren Mullen: what you're consulting on.

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Darren Mullen: And there. There is a lot of value in that.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah, I think it's it's important to really stand out in in the your ideal clients. Mind

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AJ Riedel: that way. Yeah.

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Darren Mullen: Is that is that a way that that you

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Darren Mullen: kind of mentor consultants to

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Darren Mullen: establish themselves as an expert is through like publishing a book, or

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Darren Mullen: or do you mostly rely more on, say, newsletters.

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AJ Riedel: It really depends. It depends on your your area that your skill set.

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AJ Riedel: But I personally

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AJ Riedel: work with Linkedin writing longer articles and then promoting those articles as posts. And this podcast is now my new way of

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AJ Riedel: of marketing to my ideal clients.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: So. And you know the both writing articles on Linkedin

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AJ Riedel: doing a podcast doing, a newsletter. Those are all ways of reinforcing that you are the expert in your field that you are the smart sheet expert. And that's that's the important part is that when they think, when they realize they need help.

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AJ Riedel: The 1st person they're going to think of is you?

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AJ Riedel: Yeah?

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AJ Riedel: Is your consulting practice delivering the lifestyle that you dreamed it would.

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Darren Mullen: I I think I'm getting there.

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Darren Mullen: The the the 1st few years, especially the 1st year, was probably the hardest.

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Darren Mullen: as far as the amount of time I was putting in.

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Darren Mullen: I'm I'm a lot further ahead than

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Darren Mullen: I think I would ever think I would be.

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AJ Riedel: Okay.

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Darren Mullen: I didn't. I didn't really know what to expect when I 1st started.

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Darren Mullen: you know. And when I 1st started I was, I was thinking, I'm just gonna

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Darren Mullen: we're just gonna be doing the traditional, consulting, freelancing work and

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Darren Mullen: you know, I didn't think I'd be able to necessarily break out of that

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Darren Mullen: even though I I wanted to. That's why I was looking for these sort of

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Darren Mullen: alternate revenue streams. But at the time I I just I didn't see them. I didn't know they they were available. I didn't know what was available.

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Darren Mullen: And then, once, I think, started those collaborations with those other companies. You know, I kind of realized that.

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Darren Mullen: you know. My, I guess I I

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Darren Mullen: I I just assume that competing companies wouldn't really be interested in in talking to me, working with me, but it was really the opposite. I started reaching out, and they were more than happy to say, Oh, yeah, let's collaborate

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Darren Mullen: and.

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AJ Riedel: That's a great lesson for other self employed consultants is.

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Darren Mullen: Exactly.

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AJ Riedel: Don't be afraid to reach out.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah, that more 9 times out of 10. I found that, too. When I was 1st starting out, 9 times out of 10, people were more than happy to share information or suggest collaborations.

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Darren Mullen: Yep, definitely.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah.

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Darren Mullen: Home.

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Darren Mullen: And and so now it's you know, I I think I have a better containment on

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Darren Mullen: on the hours I work.

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Darren Mullen: And I I help out a little bit with the homeschooling in the morning as we homeschool, too.

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Darren Mullen: and it's nice to be able to just

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Darren Mullen: go go do something when you want to, and you don't have to ask permission as as long as you know, as long as you can still deliver

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Darren Mullen: to your clients.

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Darren Mullen: It. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you. You have to do things that

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Darren Mullen: you know that maybe aren't the most convenient times. But overall.

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Darren Mullen: Yes, it's it's delivering more of that lifestyle I like where

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Darren Mullen: it's it's definitely a lot freer. It's it's very freeing.

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Darren Mullen: You know, being able to just determining when, when and where you want to work.

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AJ Riedel: You're getting that that freedom.

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Darren Mullen: Yep.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah, where do you see your business being in 3 to 5 years.

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Darren Mullen: Think, and hopefully, I'll be more in that education space where I'm doing more more teaching.

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Darren Mullen: And what I haven't determined is will. I have more

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Darren Mullen: consultants working under me to kind of service.

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Darren Mullen: say current clients, or any new clients that come in. That's something I need to determine. Still

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Darren Mullen: but definitely see myself more in that teaching space and and coaching of of users.

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Darren Mullen: And I'm also working on a new launching a new company in partnership with some other entities

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Darren Mullen: to launch a new software platform.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah. So I could see, assuming that goes well and successful. Take taking more of a role in in that new company

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Darren Mullen: while while still, you know, operating the smart sheet. Guru Brand, too, teach in this space.

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AJ Riedel: Okay, what's the biggest challenge that you anticipate? You're going to face in achieving your long-term goals.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, think it's learning to

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Darren Mullen: offload work on others, you know. But learning to be able to

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Darren Mullen: give someone else administrative work or our technical work.

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Darren Mullen: To allow me to concentrate

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Darren Mullen: more more on the business side or the marketing side.

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Darren Mullen: That that I think for for me is gonna be the biggest challenge.

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Darren Mullen: because it's it's it's hard to really, you know. Grow your business when you are doing everything.

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AJ Riedel: Yes, absolutely. That's important. I love that. It's hard to grow your business when you're trying to do everything.

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AJ Riedel: Yes.

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Darren Mullen: And I think that's a lot of you know, business owners, especially when you're we're starting out like this. And

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Darren Mullen: as a freelancer. It's it's it's hard to do that.

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Darren Mullen: It's it's hard to let go of that control. Because you're you know. You have to find people that you can trust, and

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Darren Mullen: to be able to do that work for you and still maintain. You know the standards that you've set for your business.

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AJ Riedel: And it's another hat to wear, besides being the person who does the the projects and the business owner and the marketer. Now, you're a manager of people as well.

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Darren Mullen: Exactly.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah.

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AJ Riedel: And one last question.

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AJ Riedel: What advice do you have for self-employed consultants who are maybe a year or 2 or 3 back.

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Darren Mullen: Where where you were.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, I think. Obviously reaching out for collaborations. Which we've already talked about that. So I'm

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Darren Mullen: you know, learn from mistakes.

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Darren Mullen: you know. Look at those as learning opportunities. And and don't assume that everyone else knows what they're doing, because most people most people don't. Yeah, they're they're making those same mistakes, you are, and have the same challenges. So so don't don't assume that

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Darren Mullen: just because you someone appears to know what they're doing, and and looks really successful.

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Darren Mullen: You know they may not be.

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Darren Mullen: or you know they may not be that further ahead than you are,

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Darren Mullen: and let's see what else? What else could be good advice? You know. Build your audience right.

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Darren Mullen: start building an audience in a medium that you're comfortable with.

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Darren Mullen: Yeah, if.

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Darren Mullen: And Youtube and Linkedin works for me and email us.

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Darren Mullen: But you know you, you may have a depending on your industry or what you're what you're doing. There may be some other medium that's better or that, or that you're more comfortable with

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Darren Mullen: you know. Start with that and and be consistent with it.

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Darren Mullen: You have to have consistency and stamina to really stick with it for it to pay off.

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Darren Mullen: You know, in in the case of my email list, I've I've had subscribers out down there, for.

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Darren Mullen: you know, maybe almost 2 years before they reach out and bye

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Darren Mullen: But you know, like I said before, once they do reach out, they've already made them right up.

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AJ Riedel: You're playing the long game.

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Darren Mullen: Exactly exactly

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Darren Mullen: and don't let that discourage you. It's it can be easy to get discouraged in the beginning, because you don't know you don't know what direction to go in.

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Darren Mullen: You don't know. Should I be? Should I be doing more more client work? Should I be doing more marketing, you know.

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Darren Mullen: And I I think, too, you have to realize that especially starting out is

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Darren Mullen: you know. Do enough client work to, you know. Have some revenue coming in.

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Darren Mullen: But then then spend the rest of the time trying to.

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Darren Mullen: you know market and build out your audience so that way.

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Darren Mullen: you know, when the time comes you you've invested that time, and then you can start getting that value from it. Eventually.

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AJ Riedel: And you're you're singing off my song sheet. You know the importance of of establishing your marketing system.

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AJ Riedel: Yeah, well, thank you so much for

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AJ Riedel: joining me today, being a guest on the thriving through podcast I really appreciated our conversation today and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

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Darren Mullen: Yes, and thank you for having me too. Aj.

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Darren Mullen: And you have a nice day as well.

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AJ Riedel: Thank you.